(no subject)

[glaucon]

yuki_onna, whom I usually find to be more or less spot on, doesn't like Party Monster very much and I think her reasons are a little silly.

she also seems to not like Party Monster either, but I haven't seen that and so I don't know whether I'd agree with her on that or not.

I should add that I found the movie (the 2003 one) interesting and well-crafted and would recommend it to most people, but you might want to read yuki_onna's review if you're thinking of taking my word for it. it's certainly not a nice movie, but I found it funny and deeply disturbing (usually not at the same time) and thought most of the performances were fantastic.

anyway, here's what I had to say about it. I'm probably full of shit in at least five ways. please point them out if you notice any of them.

---

huh. I didn't watch the documentary. didn't even realize there was one, aside from the interviews and various other DVD extras.

but I did watch dramatization (the movie with Culkin etc) and didn't see it even remotely the same way. my feeling was that the film depicted Alig as an out-and-out asshole, albeit a very charismatic and interesting one, and the "scene" as...well...a bunch of pretentious kids doing a bunch of drugs and dressing up funny. I don't remember the St James interview terribly well (watched it close to a year ago) but my recollection is that he seemed to see things very much that way: "we were so young and stupid, but it was a fun ride while it lasted."

I wonder why our perceptions differed so much. but, on a diffent note:

I don't know if the Club Kid scene was Art or not. that whole "what is Art?" discussion is one which I find an annoying waste of time, by and large. but I do think that "scene" was a descendent of and reaction to the Glam scene in the 70s, which was a descendent of and reaction to Kesey's Pranksters in the 60s, which was a descendent of and reaction to the Beats in the 50s, which was a descendent of and reaction to the Lost Generation of the 20s and 30s, which was a descent of and reaction to several other things which go back how many more decades of (counter)(pseudo)cultural history.

and it was definitely a major progenitor of the rave culture of the 90s (although not as major as Peewee's Playhouse, I often annoyingly argue), in the US at least. did any Art or Cultural Significance arise from the rave scene? I think it's too early to tell, but it did feed into the immense popularity of countercultural "arts" festivals like Burning Man and other lower-key, perhaps more ultimately effective local events and organizations and movements. many of which I frankly find rather silly and annoying, but may very well have lasting cultural and sociohistorical impact...or at least leave interesting descendants.

what were the hippies, the Lost Generation, the Beatniks, etc, after all but a bunch of pretentious kids getting fucked up and then writing about it? and how much of that writing was self-satisfied accounts (sometimes fictional or fictionalized) of "so and so got fucked up and killed someone"?

honestly, isn't "so and so got fucked up and killed someone" the plot of the Great Gatsby in a nutshell?

now, I'm not saying Party Monster is a "great work of art" (whatever that means) on par with _the Great Gatsby_ and I'm not saying it isn't, and I'm not saying the Club Kids were socially relevant or even especially interesting, but if you're going to single them out for their ethical stance (or lack thereof) and aesthetic values (or lack thereof), you might want to figure out why, of all the similar things upstream and downstream, they are singled out for particular ire.

Comments

[littleamerica.livejournal.com]

To a first approximation I think the difference between the two is that some of the characters in The Great Gatsby have souls.

I can't remember if I've seen Party Monster or not. Was there a documentary about the same killing? Released prior to 2003? If so, I may have seen that instead. I know the basic story, but I don't remember any Culkins.

[glaucon.livejournal.com]

well, I think everyone has a soul. fitzgerald may have been more concerned with depicting the souls of his characters and their souls may have sucked less though.

someone pointed out in the other thread though that the characters in Gatsby, although occasionally plastered, were cold sober when they did their killing. other examples may be better.

yes, there was an earlier documentary in 1998. the later one was a "fictional" bio pic type of thing (but very weird) starring a very dissolute Macauley Culkin, Seth Green, Marilyn Manson, and a bunch of other wackos. (the two "Party Monster" links above go to the two different movies.) both were directed and produced by the same dudes. they also, apparently, also just came out with a documentary about Deep Throat. the movie. not the guy.

Boy oh boy

[tynkrrbell.livejournal.com]

Be glad I'm not still in Seattle - we'd be fighting up a storm over this one.. suffice it to say, I'm on yuki_onna's side with this one, and I don't even know the gal!

Hugs, anyway!

[ms-violet.livejournal.com]

Would I benefit from renting Party Monster?
I've heard people talk about this movie, and I've never heard anyone use the word "unique" or even "really good" to describe it.

I agree that art can rise out of a party scene, if that's what you're getting at, because permissiveness, partying and art go hand in hand. But it sounds like these guys were just trying to get attention.

[airpang.livejournal.com]

Who rattled your cage?
Glad to hear someone did.

Consider "I argue annoyingly." over "I annoyingly argue."
(I would never point this out except in this exact situation.)

I'm curious to know what you think "got fucked up" means.
(You keep using this word... I do not think it means what you think it means.)

Is it drugs?
Are you talking about drugs here?
Is one of us a drug in this scenario?
Am I the drug, Harry?

Because I think there is a deeper sense of "fucked up" that has more to do with why the Lost Generation, Beatniks and Major League Baseball are still art, but somehow disappointing.
There's Friday-night Fucked Up which is a healthy part of a balanced diet and fundamental to the American Way, but then there's also "I had to blow my Dad's friends for cocaine when I was eleven and now I can't stop jamming laxative suppositories into my vagina." brand of Fucked Up which speaks more to the conditon of your Art/Not Art - Offensive/Enlightening dilemma.

But I have confidence that we'll get this all sorted out soon and everything will be clear.
After all, WE are on the case.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

[opadit.livejournal.com]

Party Monster struck me the way Zola's Thérèse Raquin does: the characters are so wholly unlikeable and the story so stomach-churning that the reader/viewer can't turn away. When that's done well, it's compelling and impossible to ignore. When it's not done well, it's just Stephen King or a run-of-the-mill splatter movie.

I think a fun movie night trifecta would be Party Monster, Trainspotting, and, oh, Sid and Nancy.

[glaucon.livejournal.com]

and Withnail and I.

[opadit.livejournal.com]

I like Withnail and I, Barfly, and Leaving Las Vegas.

[impudenceisblis.livejournal.com]

i can understand what you are saying on this.

although i don't personally have any love for the club kids of today or yesteryear, i don't single them out for hate...unless they hit me with a glowstick.

the movie isn't likeable. it is however interesting and well done. in my opinion at least.

eh. to each their own.